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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090415 01:24 
Legendary Overfiend
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Scott wrote:
sexual shits and giggles

I agree with your point totally, but wow, could you have chosen a worse turn of phrase there?

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090415 06:31 
Interactive Blogger
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Who wouldn't despise or strongly dislike art when some hack can put a blue circle and a red square on a white canvas and sell it to some sucker willing to pay a retarded amount of money for it, and have everyone ooh and ahh over the magnificent "art". Or some Japanese sculptor that makes a 6" naked FMA Edward with a boner shooting out a lasso of semen that sells for $2-3 million at some auction. Yeah, that's art for sure. Where are the Picassos, the Van Goghs, the Warhols, the Da Vincis, the Monets, the Dalis? Have fun with that one. It's all a fucking joke and it's more for money, recognition, or feeling important. I was at a few art galleries here in Cleveland. Indies, hipsters, scene kids, and pompous older douchebags walk around wearing their berets and murmuring shit about how "inspiring" or "transcending" it is while they don't have a fucking clue what they're talking about. Oddly enough, the artists probably don't either. I can't take them, their ideas, or your defense of them seriously. It's a joke.

But what's the point in explaining? I have "no taste" because I haven't automatically kissed your (and these artists') ass(es). Call me a lummox all you want, call into question my character, mention some crap about ego, say I have no taste, that's fine. It's the only (and predictable) argument you and they have. Ripping on someone else that you feel you have the "cultural" high-ground on is also probably the only thing in the world right now that you have to make you feel good, and God knows you need something to feel good about. So, enjoy.

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090415 06:37 
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There are TV shows out there that I think are trashy and stupid but other people think are the pinnacle of comedy -- that doesn't mean that comedy and TV shows in general are worthless.

I mean, you can appreciate art while not liking things that other people like. That's a large part of what makes art... well, art. You don't have to (and really can't) categorically dismiss art as being completely worthless, because you know you appreciate things from a visual standpoint, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090415 07:41 
Legendary Overfiend
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Kashi wrote:
It's all a fucking joke.

Your entire argument is a fucking joke. The only thing you said that makes any sense is that there's no point in explaining. :frown:

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090417 05:02 
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Dammit guys, I go away for two days and....what have I told you about bringing Naruto into internet discussions. You know, the Nazis brought Naruto into internet discussions.

Both of you are right that the other side's arguments are opinionated and based entirely on mindless subjectivity (as opposed, naturally, to one's own opinion), but that said I'm going with Kashi on this one, if nothing else than, well,

Quote:
I have to say, you are grossly mistaken about the art community. Just because you don't share their standards or understand the subtleties of beauty they admire, doesn't mean that they're just lying shits who are just like you, but pretending to be better for the sake of their own egos. Seriously.


Yes, most of them are. Granted, anyone who wants their work to be in the spotlight should be egomaniacs. Humble rockstars are about as exciting as a Mormon stag party. That said, I applaud Kashi for taking a stand on what he likes and doesn't like and being just as opinionated and stubborn about it as any 'art lover'. But he bases it on what he likes, not what's high- or low-brow, thought-provoking, daring, or anything else that other people decide. And that's my problem with what's generally considered 'high art'.

To have my own arrogant moment, I've studied an incredible amount of art (visual, literary, performance) - probably more than anyone else here. The best art is that which needs no explanation attached. Art critics and those black turtlenecked intellectual debutantes miss the point entirely by believing art is something that can only be appreciated by the elite and that needs explaining to the masses. Unfortunately, a lot of high-brow art is (sometimes literally) shit on canvas, but is still favored above baser expression because it belongs to a particular genre or style.

Half the fun of subjectivity is bashing the other person's opinion, but do it because you know what you like, not because you think it's more sophisticated or artistic.

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090417 05:46 
Legendary Overfiend
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Monkee wrote:
Half the fun of subjectivity is bashing the other person's opinion

Well, personally, I don't like it when anyone bashes anyone else's opinion(s). I'm a fan of civilized, respectful discourse. That doesn't mean you can't be passionate about things, but just that you treat the other person and their opinions with respect and try to counter them logically, if applicable, and not by sheer force of insult.

Monkee wrote:
Art critics and those black turtlenecked intellectual debutantes miss the point entirely by believing art is something that can only be appreciated by the elite and that needs explaining to the masses.

Anyway, I don't know what art community you guys are talking about. I don't go outside, I spend my life sitting in this room, detached from the rest of the world, so I really don't know what any other artists are like. But I still think the artists you're describing are caricatures. Critics of any kind are just people full of bullshit. You certainly don't have to know something to critique it. As an artist, and not necessarily one who's studied any art, other than the art I've come across that I happen to like, it's my opinion that the art community you're describing, whether it's an accurate depiction or not, is not what art is really about. The only thing that matters in art is what you like. If a person can shit on a canvas and sell it for a million bucks, it's because somebody thought the experience of owning that shit on a canvas was worth shelling out a million bucks. To the person who created it, it could be art, or it could be a paycheck. To the person who bought it, it could be art, or it could be some convoluted status symbol. Art is subjective. Even if the culture is twisted, that's no basis for attacking the concept of art itself. I burned myself out on the physics community, but I still respect the laws and the methods of scientific practice. I'm not talking about "art lovers" and "high art", I'm talking about "artists" and "art".

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090417 09:46 
Legendary Overfiend
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Monkee wrote:
The best art is that which needs no explanation attached.

Furthermore, you do have a point here, that good art, like a good joke, should be able to effect the appreciator without an explanation. Yet, putting aside the elitism, there's also something to be said about a piece of art that grows deeper as you learn more about it. In my opinion, truly great art - and this is of course a subjective thing - is something that captures your attention and holds onto it, increasing your appreciation as you dive into its many levels of meaning. To have one of these two qualities is good, but it is the art which contains both that is the kind you want to take home and hang on your wall (if it's the kind of art that can be hung on a wall). Otherwise, it's either just a nice picture you like, or a complex one that you don't have especially personal feelings for.

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090418 03:44 
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zharth wrote:
I burned myself out on the physics community, but I still respect the laws and the methods of scientific practice. I'm not talking about "art lovers" and "high art", I'm talking about "artists" and "art".


This...this is a really good way of explaining it. Like I said, I love art in (most) all its forms, but what I have no patience for is people who throw their lot behind a certain kind of art (which, I have found, to be of a distinctive brand and style - the avant-garde, the obtuse, and so on) because it's what's "classy" or "sophisticated", while they themselves have no true connection to it other than wanting to look good in front of others. There's a scene in Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby", in which the narrator describes the books on the shelf of a popular soiree hoster's home. All very impressive titles and evidence that their owner is truly well read, no doubt. However, pulling one off the shelf he notes that the pages are uncut. This is in the days where pages in a book came a a single sheet folded into two, requiring the new owner to run a knife along to cut the two pages apart. In short, it's obvious he's never read any of these books. That's the sort of attitude that Kashi and I find so common in self-described "artistic circles", and that's what we're reacting against.

On to your next post: I actually think art should never need to be studied or discussed - quiet reflection in its presence, yes, but I'm of the school of belief that the way in which art touches the soul transcends the rules and structure we're forced to put on language so that we can communicate. I'm not saying there isn't studying to be done, but I believe the focus should be on the audience for which the art was made. If you can properly understand the audience, the art should need no explanation. Just as some art is made primarily for the sake of the artist themself, I have no doubt that its effects will only ever be truly felt by the artist themself or someone who is truly empathetic to them. I doubt there are many people who would argue that Handel's "Messiah" is not a great piece of music. But rather than spend time studying the music, I would advise instead studying 18th century Britain, because that's the environment in which the art was made and performed. Does that make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090418 04:54 
Legendary Overfiend
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Monkee wrote:
I actually think art should never need to be studied or discussed

I think I generally follow what you're saying in this paragraph, but studying and discussing art is part of the fun of it, right? I mean, the initial impact it has is one thing, but what's the point of a good piece of art if you're not moved to study it further and discuss it with friends? Take movies, for example. When you see a movie, it either affects you deeply or it doesn't. You know before discussing it with someone else whether it was "really something" or not. But either way, it's fun to talk about it and dissect it and whatnot, isn't it?

Monkee wrote:
the way in which art touches the soul transcends the rules and structure we're forced to put on language so that we can communicate

Yes, I'd like to agree with this. I've always had a problem with language, and I don't think it's really adequate for explaining complex human emotions. Everytime I watch a movie, I try to think of words that can do justice to my complicated reactions - it's almost like I can imagine 3D feelings in my head, and when I put them into flat words, it's just impossible to express the true "depth" of those original feelings.

However, I still think it's worthwhile, and entertaining, and fulfilling, to talk about the movie just the same.

Monkee wrote:
Just as some art is made primarily for the sake of the artist themself, I have no doubt that its effects will only ever be truly felt by the artist themself or someone who is truly empathetic to them.

While I can understand this line of reasoning, it seems a little bit exclusive. When an artist creates a work of art, he usually gives it some measure of meaning. Picking up on that specific meaning is not necessarily imperative for another person to enjoy that piece of art. A more concrete example is with song lyrics. The words can mean many different things to many different people, and a person could like the song for a very different reason than it was intended (usually by the artist) to be interpreted. It brings up issues of who really "owns" the art (metaphysically speaking), and which, if any, interpretation is the "true" interpretation. If a person completely misconstrues the "proper" meaning for a piece of art, but enjoys it immensely for some other reason, can we really say that they are out of line?

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 Post subject: Re: Censorship
PostPosted: 090418 21:57 
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[Reveal] Spoiler: Cyanide and Happiness
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