Login |  Register




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 05:30 
Legendary Overfiend
Legendary Overfiend
User avatar
Joined: 090226 11:19
Posts: 527
Location: Terminal Dogma
Scott wrote:
Why would you encourage it to hang around you when you want it to go away?

Call it a heroic flaw. Involuntary self-sacrifice. When the cat comes up to you with its puppy dog eyes, no matter how much you know you should look away, you just can't help indulging the creature. Not everybody finds it as easy to be heartless as you do. :P

_________________
I see what you did there.
Image


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 23:12 
Interactive Blogger
Interactive Blogger
User avatar
Joined: 090301 04:38
Posts: 268
Location: Cleveland, OH
Good Lord this thread exploded into 3 pages. Let me read all these posts and catch up then I'll come back and edit.

I shotgunned quotes from 2-3 posts, so it took awhile to combine em all together.

======

IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
I recall everybody constantly trying to force on me the idea that being social is the key to happiness. I'm not normal, it's not a point of pride or some shit, it's a fucking fact.

From your posts, it seems that you are very afraid of being mean to people. You are hesitant to tell someone that you're not interested. This tells me that you don't want to be anti-social, because if you were 110% anti-social you wouldn't even be interacting with these people in the first place. AND, if you were that anti-social, if you did happen to interact with them, you would have absolutely no qualms about shoving them off.

On the other hand, you're afraid of developing any close relationships with people because you're worried about damaging or breaking those bonds at a later date. You are worried about the repercussions. So, you feel that you should be completely and utterly alone. You tell yourself that you're happier alone. You tell yourself that you can't damage or break those bonds if you never form them. You tell yourself that you are not social. But yet, you're not ruthless enough to be super anti-social.

So where are you at then? It seems to me you're in the same position most normal people are in: Stuck finding a middle ground, because very few (if any) are at the extremes. Except in your situation, you're hell-fucking-bent on forcing yourself to the anti-social side. Why is that?

zharth to IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
I don't know if it's your personality or what, but as much as you might hate it, you are a social butterfly. People like you. They think you're interesting. They want to hang out with you...you tend to engage yourself in that conversation and act all social-like. Maybe that's why people want to hang out with you. Because you're like that.

Doug, if there ever was evidence to counter what you say, this would be it. Indeed, you have made it extremely clear that you want to be alone. But then I read this, and I kind of assumed it before; I truly don't think you want to be alone. You say you do and you say it constantly, but I feel like you're just railing against it. It's as if admitting that you don't want to be lonely means your life is over, or that you've failed somehow, or that somehow something terrible is going to happen. Is that the case?

Humans are not solitary creatures. We simply aren't. We are social creatures. The extent of that sociability differs from person to person, but it's there.

zharth wrote:
IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
the main problem seems to be that even the outcasts & loners WAnT to do social stuff.

This is something that baffled me in high school. I thought the "outcasts" group would be right for me, until I realized they were exactly like the jocks and the nerds and everyone else in terms of how they hung out and related to one another. Where were the people with the true social deficiencies? I guess I never found them because they were hanging out in their own rooms by themselves, which is exactly what I was doing...which echoes your next point:


This is fundamentally incorrect because people with "true social deficiencies" do not exist. It's nothing more than a soundbite that sounds really good because it's overly dramatic. If such a thing DID exist, then how could you consider those of us on the board to be a friend? After all, you'd be "truly socially deficient" and wouldn't socialize with us, right? And we wouldn't socialize with you, right?

Look, the mere fact that the "outcasts" form a group and do group-like activities is plain evidence that even those who are the most anti-social feel a desire to be wanted and have friends. They WANT to find a niche. Even the most hardcore of the anti-social crowd will make a feeble effort to get out and meet others like themselves. And if they don't physically go out, there are ways in today's age to do so, namely, the internet. Of course, this is what spawns forums and chat rooms, video games and etc... As hard as you want to be some kind of ultra-loner, it's not going to happen.

IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
I'm leaving this board. Goodbye.

I will be disappointed if you truly leave the board. There's no reason for that.

zharth wrote:
I've never known you to back down from a heated discussion before. To put things in context, I get incredibly frustrated when I try to describe my own shortcomings and Scott responds with the same kind of one-liners ("just do it", etc.) he's using here, which are not only of little to no help, but also entirely missing the point of the problem in the first place - but I expect that kind of reaction from somebody who doesn't experience the complexity of the issue from a first-person perspective, and it doesn't mean we can't still be friends.

Firstly, this is unfair to Scott. I have done the same thing in the HIV thread so you should at least throw me under the bus here as well. Secondly, as much as one wants to think so, sometimes the best solution or suggestion truly is the simplest one. Paragraphs and paragraphs of text have their place, as do one-liners. To immediately dismiss them as "little to no help" is both a fucking insult to the person making the suggestion as well as to you. The person cared enough to pitch in, at least give what they have to say a shot.

Here's a quick example: I could bitch and moan all day long about how difficult Photoshop is, and both Scott and yourself could cuddle and soothe me with paragraphs upon paragraphs about how to ease into it. I could pitch a hissy fit and still continue to bitch and moan about PS's perceived difficulty and how I won't be able to do this and won't be able to do that. Scott and you could again cuddle and soothe me as to how it'll be fine while giving tips and hints. At some point, however, it all comes down to one thing: I have to open PS and actually try it. So, at some point, Scott and you are going to have to deliver the one-liner: "Mike, just open the damn program and start trying the things we've said." But I don't want to hear that, right? So I dismiss it as a one-liner that's little to no help, which is insulting to the people trying to help me as well as insulting to myself for not giving their suggestion a chance. In this situation, the best advice truly is the simplest advice. It's just not the advice I wanted to hear. So I can either be a man about it or I can resume my sob story about how PS is too tough and get absolutely nowhere. So what's it going to be?

IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
Umm... right. You don't even read my posts (you MIGHT skim them) and then you make ridiculous suggestions that contradict major parts of what I've said. How many times in this thread have I compared this situation to the one between me and LJ in reverse? Do you think I consider MYSELF to be a 2-dimensional creature? I've not said anything about these people being 2-dimensional.

For gods sake, you don't think I would hurt people if I did what I want? Do you think it would take my family 2 days to get over my suicide? Christ. I'm not looking for yes-men discussions, I'm looking for people who actually read carefully what I'm saying and discuss that, rather than just injecting their squeaky-clean worldview into my life.

You are not giving the people that read your posts enough credit. To flat-out say that we don't read your posts and at best claim that we skim them is untrue, absurd, and insulting. Grow the fuck up, Doug. Seriously, pull your head out of your fucking ass.

Now with that out of the way, let's put the topic of suicide aside. Get it out of your head. You're not that heartless of a person to do that to your family, and you're reasonable enough to know it's stupid. So just drop it. Next, jumping from what we were discussing (hurting people by little white lies) to emotionally scarring people (by committing suicide) is unnecessary. If that was your original goal (to talk about your thoughts on suicide) then please just make a thread about it and let's tackle that problem. You can't make posts about blindly agreeing with people, or complimenting them on things where you don't mean the compliment, and then blindside us by jumping to suicide's effect on your family! You're manipulating the situation and Scott's words. Do you truly take us to be that ruthless to even think the claim that you killing yourself would have no effect? Stop it.

_________________
Bro locks got shoots. U can shoots bro. Drop ya rofl.


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090409 00:43 
Interactive Blogger
Interactive Blogger
User avatar
Joined: 090301 04:38
Posts: 268
Location: Cleveland, OH
zharth wrote:
Scott wrote:
I can't even begin to understand liking someone and not wanting to be around them.

Here's a metaphor of sorts: imagine you have a really strong allergic reaction to cats. In that situation, would it not be possible to like a specific cat, or even cats in general, while not wanting to be around them? You like them, but being around them is painful for you. You don't blame it on the cat(s) - it's not their fault - and you don't want to hurt the cat's "feelings" by avoiding it and telling it to go away, but at the same time, that's how you feel inside, because you know that spending time with it is painful.

In the case I believe we're discussing, it doesn't even necessarily have to be people that the person likes, but people that like that person, care about him, and take care of him. People that do things for him, and people that enjoy being a part of his life. Yet hanging around with those people is painful - and it has nothing to do with the individual people themselves, which are, by all accounts, perfectly likable, but it's just a general dislike of being around people - like having an allergic reaction to them independent of how likable they are (or aren't). And so, being around these people is painful, but telling them to go away and leave you alone is a hard thing to do, because you do still care about them. Even if you'd prefer not to be around them.

Anything?

This still doesn't click. The cat analogy makes sense because there is a definable and logical reason for the allergy. That is, the cat dander and the cat saliva are causing the allergic reaction. Sidenote: Yes, I found out that it's actually (mostly) the saliva from when the cat licks its hair that causes the allergy. The saliva gets on the hair and then the hair gets on the object, which you then come in contact with.

But moving on, your cat example only explains things on a macro level. You need to explain things on a micro level. Cat allergies on the micro level are explainable because your body pumps out antibodies and then histamines. Your situation... what is it? You claim to be the person in the example and you claim the cats to be the people you're dealing with. But you're not explaining the allergy! WHAT is it? WHAT is causing that allergy? WHAT is wrong? Right now it's just this amorphous... thing... that happens to exist solely because you say it exists. As far as I can tell, unless you can fully explain this amorphous thing, I maintain that it exists in your head, powered only by the fact that you believe in it. And if it only exists in your head because you believe in it, it can be done away with by not believing in it. Ask MoveUnderground, he's been studying this psych stuff. You can truly make yourself sick simply by believing that you are. I've done it.

Scott may feel that the cat analogy sheds some light on the situation, but I do not. I am still completely boggled as to how you can say you like people but you don't like spending time with them.

zharth wrote:
Call it a heroic flaw. Involuntary self-sacrifice. When the cat comes up to you with its puppy dog eyes, no matter how much you know you should look away, you just can't help indulging the creature. Not everybody finds it as easy to be heartless as you do. :P

There is nothing heroic about that. Nor is it self-sacrifice. If anything, the other is being sacrificed because ultimately, they will have to deal with your rejection when you can't take it anymore, which is further compounded by the fact that even you or Doug can't explain to them this... issue. The only person that ends up hurt is them, because you guys will just go back to your supposedly beloved solitude.

_________________
Bro locks got shoots. U can shoots bro. Drop ya rofl.


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090409 01:19 
Legendary Overfiend
Legendary Overfiend
User avatar
Joined: 090226 11:19
Posts: 527
Location: Terminal Dogma
Kashi wrote:
I have done the same thing in the HIV thread so you should at least throw me under the bus here as well.

You're absolutely right. Rest assured, you were in my thoughts as well when I wrote that, but I didn't think it entirely productive to add you to the fire when the comments at that point were coming mainly from Scott.

Kashi wrote:
the topic of suicide...let's tackle that problem

:lol: Oh, man. Best of luck, d00d. :lol:

Kashi wrote:
But you're not explaining the allergy! WHAT is it? WHAT is causing that allergy? WHAT is wrong?

Ok, very good question. I don't know what it is specifically in Doug's case. I would guess that it has to do with certain feelings he experiences that are hard for him to deal with. Maybe he has a condition where his brain releases too many chemicals or something, and the resulting subjective experience is too much. From complaints of his that I've heard, hanging out with people turns his world upside-down and fucks with his mind and stuff. I can understand that, because I feel a lot different when I'm alone than when I hang around with people. I'm sure most or all people do, but most people can deal with it. Maybe in his case, it's just too much. Again, going back to some kind of condition with the brain releasing too many chemicals or whatever the case may be. I'm hesitant trying to speak for him, and only he could say for sure what the problem is, if he even knows, but for the sake of the discussion, that's what I'll put out.

I do know that for me, my "allergy" to people manifests itself in the form of anxiety symptoms. Like getting really nervous, not just a little bit, but to the point where it interferes with my natural ability to function, as in, holding a conversation, thinking straight, things like that. When I even think about instances in which I'll have to deal with people, I get stomach pains and my sinuses tend to go all screwy. Even when I simulate the experience of talking to people, like typing up this post right now on this board, and others like it, the same thing happens. I start coughing like crazy (worse than usual), and it doesn't let up until a little while after I've removed myself from that experience and am concentrating on doing something more solitary and asocial in nature.

Kashi wrote:
There is nothing heroic about that. Nor is it self-sacrifice.

:roll: To clarify, I call it "heroic" because you're making a personal sacrifice (your own health, wellbeing, comfort) to satisfy another person's needs (the cat's desire to play and have companionship). It's like the knight who risks his life fighting a dragon, for the sake of saving the princess. (Assuming he's not expecting the princess to marry him in return...). And you've shown in the HIV thread to have a divergent view of what constitutes "selfishness" compared to mine, but I call it sacrifice because, once again, you're sacrificing your own wellbeing to satisfy the needs of others. Here's a concrete example: you're sitting at home feeling fine. A friend calls you up and wants to hang out with you. You think about hanging out, but it makes you nervous (or whatever the symptoms are), and you'd really rather just stay home alone. But the friend is all like, "no, come on, you have to hang out with us, I want you to, it'll be so much fun, I thought we were friends." You can either be selfish and tell the friend no, or make a sacrifice and attend to the friend's wishes against your own desires.

_________________
I see what you did there.
Image


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090409 15:56 
Interactive Blogger
Interactive Blogger
User avatar
Joined: 090301 04:38
Posts: 268
Location: Cleveland, OH
zharth wrote:
Ok, very good question.

What you wrote helped a little bit, for sure, but it wasn't fully what I'm looking for. You took it one step closer to the type of answer I was hoping to hear. For example:

cat dander -> production of antibodies, histamines, etc --> inflammation, watery eyes, sinuses -> cat allergies

people around you -> ______________ -> nausea, queasy, heartrate, coughing -> social anxiety

You used to have two blanks in the center, now you have one. You filled in the symptoms part describing what results, but you have yet to explain the blank section. That's what I was driving at two posts ago. I need you to explain this. The cat allergy line is explained by your immune system's response to the allergens; that is, the generation of antibodies, histamines, and something called IgE. As I have maintained, I think the blank line in your case is "It's just all in your head". Unless you can give me something concrete, the social anxiety that results is fueled by your over-analysis, you thinking too much, and these bizarre notions that you give life to merely because you wish them into existence. And because you give them life in your mind, you can work hard to take that life away, or get therapy for it, or medicine.

Are you or Doug able to fill in that blank with something legitimate? I'm truly doubtful. At best (and I will give this to you on a silver platter), you guys could blame it on a chemical imbalance and say you need medicine. Really, I almost wouldn't mind seeing that be the case, because then once you start balancing that chemical problem out, I could see you guys happy, instead of this deep sadness you two have yourselves caught in.

zharth wrote:
Here's a concrete example: you're sitting at home feeling fine. A friend calls you up and wants to hang out with you. You think about hanging out, but it makes you nervous (or whatever the symptoms are), and you'd really rather just stay home alone. But the friend is all like, "no, come on, you have to hang out with us, I want you to, it'll be so much fun, I thought we were friends." You can either be selfish and tell the friend no, or make a sacrifice and attend to the friend's wishes against your own desires.

I think this is a poor example and I wonder how you even came up with it. Was it based on an experience you had? What friend actually makes such a claim to force his buddy to hang out? At best, a friend would say "No, come on, you have to hang out with us". After all, they really do want to spend time with you, so your initial rejection is going to be met with at least little resistance. I would think most people would be dismayed at their buddies if, upon turning down an offer to do something, their enthusiastic friends didn't at least make one additional plea to come out.

At worst, a friend would say that line, sans "I thought we were friends." I haven't exactly had a massive quantity of friends during my life, but I can safely say that I have never heard that last part before. If I did, I would genuinely re-evaluate my acquaintance with that person. A real friend won't constantly pull that shit on you. That's manipulation.

Furthermore, the answer is quite easy. If you truly don't want to go out, you don't go out. To get oneself so worked up to the point where they feel compelled to attend 100% against their wishes and thus make their emotional situation that unstable is absurd. It tells me the person has no backbone, and more importantly, no trust that the relationship is stable enough to continue after saying no. I've turned down offers to hang out with MoveUnderground before, he has done the same, and that was that. Neither of us have tried to use "Come on I thought we were friends." The relationship hasn't died because we turned it down. It's pretty simple, if you don't want to hang out, you don't fucking hang out, and your friends will understand.

Dammit man, I went to a St. Patty's Day party with a whole bunch of my crew. For some strange reason, I felt really out of place. I was feeling really self-conscious for some reason. I tried striking up a conversation with people from the host's crew (there were roughly two "cliques" there for lack of a better term) and that was falling flat on its face. I tried talking to a girl or two. Didn't pan out. There was a guy there of whom I wasn't a big fan. I felt really fucking uncomfortable. My crew was on the back porch and I was inside half-ass watching the TV while two girls chatted and two guys pissed around on the guitar. So what did I do? I said fuck it, finished my beer, walked out the front door, drove home, and went to sleep. I didn't tell anyone a single fucking word and didn't say any goodbyes.

The moral of that story? Nothing came of it. I chatted with my boy Ryan a few days later, and when he asked why I bounced, I just explained the situation: I was strangely uncomfortable, and essentially, it was just a bad night. My friendship with both the host and my crew remains the same. No one was mad. No one told me "Mike I thought we were friends how could you just leave like that."

So with that long-winded novel out of the way, I have to say that I reject your example on its inaccuracy. It really is as simple as telling them "No, sorry, I don't feel like it."

_________________
Bro locks got shoots. U can shoots bro. Drop ya rofl.


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090409 21:53 
Interactive Blogger
Interactive Blogger
User avatar
Joined: 090226 11:31
Posts: 306
Location: Japan
Agreed.

There have been times when I've urged both of you to come do something or the other, and times when the both of you have turned me down for some reason or the other (though in Mike's case, it often began with a "w" and ended with "ow", heh).

Do I now have a huge chip on my shoulder that has been added to by each of those refusals? Yes. Am I going to go serial killer on your asses as the chip begins to burden my soul? Yes.


... NO. It didn't particularly affect me all that much; not because I don't care, but because you guys are my friends and I understand that you have lives and your own things.


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090409 22:00 
Legendary Overfiend
Legendary Overfiend
User avatar
Joined: 090226 11:19
Posts: 527
Location: Terminal Dogma
Kashi wrote:
Are you or Doug able to fill in that blank with something legitimate? I'm truly doubtful. At best (and I will give this to you on a silver platter), you guys could blame it on a chemical imbalance and say you need medicine. Really, I almost wouldn't mind seeing that be the case, because then once you start balancing that chemical problem out, I could see you guys happy, instead of this deep sadness you two have yourselves caught in.

Um, like, wow. It was just a metaphor, but you're really drilling it. Still, you have a point, I guess. Regardless of what causes me to feel the way I do, which negatively impacts my social experiences, it's not something, as you've suggested elsewhere, that I can just switch off. Like as if I can just stop believing the world works this way or that way and then everything will be better. As I've also said before, I've been looking for that switch all my life, and even if it did exist, the evidence suggests that it's not something you can easily find just because you want it to be there. Anyway, I'd love to believe that some drug exists that would make me feel normal, like everyone else, but it just sounds too convenient. Like the switch. Whatever it takes, it's not going to be easy. And that's exactly why you see the turmoil here. It's a constant struggle.

Kashi wrote:
I think this is a poor example and I wonder how you even came up with it. Was it based on an experience you had?

Actually, I crafted it from complaints I've heard from Doug - I suspect it's more or less similar to what Doug deals with. This discussion is getting kind of complicated, because since Doug left, I've been sort of trying to defend/explicate his point of view, while adding my own point of view in, and the two are getting kind of mixed up together. I can sympathize with a lot of what Doug has to deal with, yet, there are many decisions he makes that I don't agree with, either.

Kashi wrote:
So with that long-winded novel out of the way, I have to say that I reject your example on its inaccuracy. It really is as simple as telling them "No, sorry, I don't feel like it."

You're speaking to a different issue. You hang out with these people and talk to them, so if you don't want to hang out with them or talk to them here and there, it's not a big deal. And that's perfectly reasonable. But if you only rarely get a chance to do that, and when it comes up, you don't want to do it, then that's significant, because then it becomes a case of not seeing them ever. Now, a normal person would just say, "okay, I guess he doesn't like me". But not everyone reacts in reasonable behavioral patterns. What if that person was obsessed with the idea of you being their friend?

Look, the more I try to explain this, the less confident I get, because I'm only guessing, and I'm ending up assuming what Doug's "friends" are like, and I don't even know if it's accurate, so I might be steering the discussion in the wrong way. So maybe I should just lay his argument to rest.

Kashi wrote:
Unless you can give me something concrete, the social anxiety that results is fueled by your over-analysis, you thinking too much, and these bizarre notions that you give life to merely because you wish them into existence. And because you give them life in your mind, you can work hard to take that life away, or get therapy for it, or medicine.

I want to say that I do not "wish" these things into existence. It has never been a choice. And you say those sorts of things aren't concrete. Well, they're not chemicals and atoms and whatnot, but just because they're thoughts, doesn't mean that they aren't significant. And it also doesn't mean that I can just change them or get rid of them just because they don't have any corporeal substance. I talked to a man once who had a fear of falling in the shower, I think as a result of some accident that happened once or something. He could tell himself a thousand times before getting in the shower that falling was not only unlikely, but also not a big deal. Yet, when he got in the shower, the feelings of fear still overcame those protective thoughts which were blown away like candles in a storm. These are powerful things we're dealing with, much more powerful than concrete, physical barriers.

_________________
I see what you did there.
Image


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090409 22:06 
Interactive Blogger
Interactive Blogger
User avatar
Joined: 090226 11:31
Posts: 306
Location: Japan
zharth wrote:
And that's perfectly reasonable. But if you only rarely get a chance to do that, and when it comes up, you don't want to do it, then that's significant, because then it becomes a case of not seeing them ever. Now, a normal person would just say, "okay, I guess he doesn't like me". But not everyone reacts in reasonable behavioral patterns. What if that person was obsessed with the idea of you being their friend?


A normal person would probably say "oh, that was pretty bad timing" and be a bit bummed before moving on. I mean, Mike and I were going to meet at some point last summer and it just never panned out. He's threatened to send me a dickpunch in a box, but it never materialized.

The only way I can think of that someone would say "okay, I guess he doesn't like me" would be if you consistently turned down their invitations and never talked to them at all (online or off) for a long period of time with no explanation.

zharth wrote:
But not everyone reacts in reasonable behavioral patterns. What if that person was obsessed with the idea of you being their friend?


Then you're not in a healthy relationship and they probably need help. This isn't Thirteen or Carrie or something...


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090409 22:47 
Legendary Overfiend
Legendary Overfiend
User avatar
Joined: 090226 11:19
Posts: 527
Location: Terminal Dogma
Scott wrote:
The only way I can think of that someone would say "okay, I guess he doesn't like me" would be if you consistently turned down their invitations and never talked to them at all (online or off) for a long period of time with no explanation.

Well, yeah, that was pretty much what I was thinking.

Scott wrote:
Then you're not in a healthy relationship and they probably need help.

This scenario is certainly not out of the question.

_________________
I see what you did there.
Image


Profile  Offline
 
 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090410 06:41 
Interactive Blogger
Interactive Blogger
User avatar
Joined: 090226 11:31
Posts: 306
Location: Japan
Well, if you're always turning down their invitations and you never talk to them, even if you superficially "like" them, you're not really friends.


Profile  Offline
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Panel

Top You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
Search for:
Jump to:  
 cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Dizayn Ercan Koc